Randy Moss: ‘I do think I’m the greatest receiver ever to play this game’

 burkyman70  The majority of people commenting in Moss's favor, obviously grew up watching him play and not Jerry Rice.  You know, the stand up guys don't get the "props" from this younger generation that likes the big mouth players more so than the big number players. Jerry's Big number #1.

 harbinjr77  burkyman70 I watched them both, avidly, and am a huge Jerry Rice fan.  Domination of a game from the WR position is my mark of "greatest" and Rice only had 2 years, 89-90, of the kind of domination that Ross had over a span of 8 years.

 harbinjr77  burkyman70 excuse me, Moss had over a span of 8 years.

 Levari   You're crazy. you look at the numbers, they do't lie.  Tell me how many times is Moss on this list? http://www.sportscity.com/nfl/records/single-season-receiving-yards-leaders/

Moss 4 Rice 9.  Just saying.  Numbers don't lie.

 harbinjr77 Moss had 3 guys on him at a time.  Rice had Taylor, Craig, Wrathman, Brent Jones, etc. etc. the list goes on.  Rice didn't get doubled or tripled nearly as much as moss because the rest of the team would kill you, nor did moss have the consistent qb situation.  if you reversed the team situations Moss would be on there just as much, if not more, and Jerry would be on there about the same as Moss currently is.  numbers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story.  the fact is teams feared Moss like no other WR because one on one he'd annihilate you. 

 Levari  harbinjr77 Rice caught double and triple teams too.  To assert that Rice lived his career in single coverage is crazy.  Moss had Carter, Robert Smith, Bernard Berrian, Jake Reed, etc.  I respect everybody's view points but Rice faced the same disadvantages of modern day receivers

 Ant  harbinjr77

Carter - in the twilight of his career.  he was fine, but he only saw so many balls because of all the attention Moss got.  By that time even Carter would tell you he was more of a possession receiver (which is all he really was anyway, a great possession receiver with great hands, especially around the goal line.)

Robert Smith - ???????  I seem to remember him.

Bernard Berrian - I seem to remember him too.

Jake Reed - Vaguely.

You can't even compare these guys to the team Rice had around him with any basis in truth.  Wes Welker is the only player of note in his prime that Moss played with.  Wes Welker is another great possession receiver. 

 Levari  harbinjr77 I'm not comparing them, I'm just illustrating the other players who also had to be accounted for on the field.  Berrian's speed, Smith's ball running ability and receiving out of the backfield, and Jake Reed in his prime was one of the league's most reliable number 2 receivers.  Moss has no excuses.  Jerry Rice didn't make any.

 Levari  but, if, woulda, coulda.  I could say the same thing about emmit smith and barry sanders and countless  others players in all sports.  All I hear is excuses, and you think Rice was never doubled or tripled covered, that's the funny thing.  Fact is, if  Moss was half as good you make him sound, when he's half as good as he used to be, he should still be putting up good numbers, but he's not, because he wasn't the caliber a receiver as rice was for more than a handful of years. Single season receiving  records/leaders Rice 9, Moss 4. And Rice's best was 10 years after he entered the league, and it's better than anything Moss ever put up. Fact, numbers don't lie. 

 Ant  harbinjr77 I didn't say Rice lived in single coverage, but  he NEVER saw the kind of coverages Moss did through his entire career.  Check the tape.  That does not lie.  They still double him over the top, and if they don't they pay.

And, yes, Jerry wins the longevity and consistency award.  I certainly give him that.  He was the most consistent player ever.  But he wasn't dominating like Moss was for as long.         

 Levari  Rice dominated single season receiving 9 times, Moss only had 4.  Ever hear the story about the two bulls? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbUxePfsoWE

 harbinjr77 Colors is an amazing flick, but we're not talking Robert Duval, we're talking football.

Anybody whose comparing Bernard Berrian to Jon Taylor or Robert Smith to Roger Craig, let alone Ricky Waters who was better than Robert Smith, or Tom Wrathman to whoever, or Brent Jones to whoever is not clearly not in right of mind.  I'm sorry.  I watched those guys, take Moss and Rice off the field and the SF 49ers would absolutely destroy any of those Viking teams.  With Moss and Rice on the field the Vikings go toe for toe. 

 harbinjr77 and that's with Joe Montana and Steve Young in their primes vs. late career Randall Cunningham and Rookie, 2nd year Daunte Culpeppar.  Come on!

 Levari  harbinjr77 Once again, I didn't compare those players.  The only comparison being made is that of Rice and Moss.  The mention of the other players was made to illustrate that Moss also had weapons on the field with him.  The effectiveness of those weapons were limited to Culpepper's overall sucking at QB. 

 Levari  harbinjr77 But Moss had a run with Tom Brady which yielded the same results.  Nobody dominated the center position like Shaq but is he the greatest center of all time?

 Ant  harbinjr77 Moss had a run without Tom Brady, which is exactly my point. 

Is Shaq the greatest of all time.  Different convo.  Hard to argue that Wilt, in any era, wouldn't have been greater.  It's a toss up between the two.  Didn't see Wilt play game for game the way I did Rice and Moss.  Shaq was as dominating as they come, though.  They both sucked at free throws.   

Doesn't anybody remember Rice pouting with the Raiders when he wasn't getting his touches?

 Todd23 Do you remember Moss pouting every year of his career?

 Ant  Todd23 We're not talking about good citizenship awards, we're talking about football ability.  WRs are divas.  They see the ball 6-9 times a game.  If they're not pouting about wanting the ball more they shouldn't be playing. 

 Levari     Moss isn't even in the top 10 for single season receiving records. 

 harbinjr77

um....

NFL Single Season Receiving Touchdown Leaders.

Randy Moss New England Patriots 23

Jerry Rice San Francisco 49ers 22

 harbinjr77 should i go on?

 Levari um  yes please, and correct that first bad post?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_td_single_season.htm

Do you know how to read?

 harbinjr77 that's total touchdowns, not receiving touchdowns.  Moss holds receiving record.  i think that's what we're talking about. 

 harbinjr77 And he seems to have "made the top ten."

 Levari  put up all the records, and how many times is moss on top? once? You're delusional. Seriously, seek help. I mean it's amazing he pulled that off with the  special randy moss coverage. and the top ten you seem to be confusing is receiving yards single season. Dan Marino has the single season TD for passing, that must make him the best, that one stat. lol.

 harbinjr77 Championships matter for QBs in a way they don't for WRs, for obvious reasons I've already explained and I'm hoping you can figure out.

If Marino had been dominating the way he was for his 3-4 seasons throughout his career, it would be tough not to put him in the conversation.  But he wasn't.  That and no championships keeps that hall of famer a littler further down the list.  But if he had won against the 49ers, we'd class him with Favre.  Right now he's slightly below. 

 harbinjr77 

Dominating:

Most touchdown receptions in a season – 23 (2007)Most touchdown receptions by a rookie in a season – 17 (1998)

Most seasons with 17 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 16 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 11 or more touchdown receptions – 8 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most seasons with 10 or more touchdown receptions – 9 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most games in a season with at least 2 touchdown receptions – 8 (2007)

One of two players to have 1,600+ receiving yards and 16+ receiving touchdowns in a season (2003), the other being Calvin Johnson (2011)

Most yards receiving in a Pro Bowl game – 212 (2000)

Most touchdowns scored in first 10 games with a new team – 16 (2007

)Most 1,200+ yard receiving seasons to start a career – 6 (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003)

Moss has averaged at least one receiving touchdown per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16)[84]

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

Four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team in 2007

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 100th receiving touchdown – (29 years and 235 days)

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown – (30 years, 313 days)

Fastest player to reach 5,000 career receiving yards – 59 games (broke record of 61 games by Jerry Rice)

Highest career yards per catch average for any player with 900+ receptions – 15.6 yards per reception

Youngest player to have 3 touchdown receptions in a game (21 years, 286 days; later broken by Rob Gronkowski)

 Levari You need to explain the way championships don't matter for WR's who are the self proclaimed best ever to play the game. And the funny thing I think of the most in all of you're ranting about dominating. is that passing in general dominates the game the moss played more than it dominated the game the rice played.  The youngest and fastest records mean not so much, and  some of his other stats benefit from him still having far less catches than rice.

And  you don't supply your source of stats

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

8 years for  Moss.

life time Moss is 9.75 over 16 seasons.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceJe00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MossRa00.htm

at the end of 16 years in SF Rice averaged 11 TD's per season.

life time Rice 9.3 over 21 seasons.

If, moss plays another 5 years his average will sink like a stone.

Rices' first 8 years he averaged 12.875 td's 

But i know, that's because he didn't have special Jerry rice coverage and had amazing Qb's.

It had absolutely nothing to do with Jerry rice catching the ball.

 harbinjr77 

"You need to explain the way championships don't matter for WR's who are the self proclaimed best ever to play the game."

Because a #1 WR sees the ball 8-11 plays a game on average.  QBs throw 25-30.  RBs 25-30.  Simple percentages that a player at a particular position can directly affect the outcome of the game matters in regards to championships.  No WR directly affected the outcome of the game as much as Moss during his years of domination, not even Rice.  He did not have the same game changing ability.  

"And the funny thing I think of the most in all of you're ranting about dominating. is that passing in general dominates the game the moss played more than it dominated the game the rice played."

I guess you should read up on the west coast offense, the offense Jerry Rice played his whole career in, the offense his coach, Bill Walsh, developed which CHANGED THE GAME OF FOOTBALL into a passing league.  (Jesus, man.)

"And  you don't supply your source of stats."

Yes, clearly I've rigged Randy's stats, which anybody can Google. 

"But i know, that's because he didn't have special Jerry rice coverage and had amazing Qb's."

He didn't have the teammates and did not have the hall of fame qbs, this is true.  He thrived in a team sport on an individual level that almost no one has ever seen.  He might me arrogant, but you gotta give it to guy.

I agree though, for longevity and consistency Rice is the man, just like Emmitt Smith was.  Very similar players at different positions. 

 Levari  harbinjr77 

Little fact here. It was '87 when Rice had 22 TDs. That was a strike season with only 12 games. I'm fairly confident that Rice would've had a few more TDs so you can't really compare Moss' 16 game season to Rice' 12. Just sayin.     

 KevinHan  harbinjr77 actually, you could make a case that the quality of ball in a strike season is a lot lower, (no training camp, players in worse conditioning, tackling especially suffers...see last seasons first 8 games) so while that season was shorter, it was still easier for Rice to get in the endzone, not harder. 

just sayin.

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 Sounds like another excuse my man.  Is your argument that Rice stayed in shape and the other guys didn't or what?  Nobody's questioning Moss' dominance.  Its his greatness when being compared to Jerry Rice.  And he stands no chance.

 Levari  harbinjr77 

Whatever. Let's see where Moss' numbers end up when he retires. Won't be anywhere close to Rice. That I'll guarantee. The whole thing here is even with Moss' amazing physical abilities he'll never ever be considered the greatest at his position. Had he kept his mouth shut and had a better work ethic then maybe. But it's all shoulda, coulda, woulda... You could even make the same case for TO but we all know what a cancer he had become.     

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 my argument is look at the first 8 games of last season.  i did.  every game was an over, super high scoring. because offenses, especially with ones that have played together for years, synch up a lot faster than defenses do.  without training camp they can't tackle.  they're out of shape.  chasing, winded.  offenses are so far ahead.  it's all there, "in the numbers" from last season.  so, yes, i'm saying a player of rice's caliber and drive,  with a legendary off season conditioning routine, capitalized on the given situation and had one of his best seasons.  i don't think it's a coincidence, or unfair or take anything away from him.  he was just a great competitor that way.  

for me, dominance is greatness at the wide receiver position.  and Randy was the most dominating wide out of the modern era.  he could beat you from any part of the field in a way no one else ever could.  he didn't maintain it for as long as Rice maintainted his level of play, but for me he did it long enough to make him the best.  very similar to barry sanders, who is the best rb of the modern era, regardless of numbers, championships or years played.  

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 also, i can't put TO in the conversation with Moss or Rice, even close.  he was very good for spells, but while physically one of the most imposing wide outs in his prime, he didn't have the same speed, certainly not the same quality of hands (now his were actually a weakness at times, dropped a lot of balls,) his route running wasn't the cleanest, and the attitude led to a lack of consistency for any length of time.  moss had his blowups, but they were far fewer and only after years of consistency with each team, except for the lost years in Oakland.

I'd put Michael Irvin over TO.  Not as physically gifted in speed or strength, but better hands and he played every game like it was his last.

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 You keep bringing up dominance.  Moss was a dominant player.  We get it.  Not debating that.  However, Jerry Rice had 14 seasons of 1,000 or more yards with 4 of those going over 1,500.  If you wanted to round up it would be 6 seasons considering he had 2 where he fell 20 yards shy or less of 1,500. 

Moss has ten 1,000 yard seasons with ONE over 1,500.  If you talk dominant, then your talking Jerry Rice.

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 And the strike season was in '87, where Rice also went over 1,000 yards.  That's dominance

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 While Rice has the best numbers over a longer period of time, I believe Randy's numbers, although statistically lower, came in a far more dominating fashion.  This is the debate basically.  Randy Moss had the unquantifiable quality of dominating his opponents in a way that Jerry Rice never did.  Jerry Rice racked up numbers with a great work ethic, talent and team, but he didn't dominate on his own the way Moss did.  It's not in the stat sheet, but you watch, either on youtube or NFL network and you can see it in each of their games.  Jerry was always more workmanlike within the west coast system, Moss was an undeniable beast who would not be denied regardless of who or what he was playing with.  That, to me, is why I think Moss is the greatest. 

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 Rice dominated in EVERY facet, not just catching the ball.  And he flat out made fools of people on the field.  Rice has 4 rings that he played a major, if not  prime role in acquiring.  That good sir, is undeniable.

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 Joe Montana/Steve Young throwing to Randy Moss.  If only the cosmos had given us that.   

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 Jim Brown behind the Cowboy O Line........only if

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 for Barry Sanders, forget about it.  wouldn't even be a conversation about who is the real GOAT.

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 LIKED

 Ant  KevinHan  harbinjr77 anyway, good convo.  gotta go.  trying to figure out how to install the run and shoot offense in my kid's pee wee league. 

 Levari  KevinHan  harbinjr77 Good luck bro!  Get another Rice/Moss for the future!

terrible hands. amazing fingertips.